It’s Not You, It’s the Pattern

I really appreciate all the constructive critical feedback I received in my previous article on pants fitting.  I value the critical feedback every bit as much as I do the “Great work!” style comments, because they truly help me learn and get better as a sewist.  So thank you to everyone who took the time to leave a comment.

More Jed Fitting

Last time, I had promised to show you the photos of the latest rounds of fitting on the Jedediah Pants pattern.  Picking up where we left off, this photo shows the fitting session after I added the wedge of fabric back into the crotch seam, at the top of the pants back and just below the yoke piece.

I took the liberty of adding a waistband to get a better feel for how the waist hangs in back. I also added a zipper in front to make the fitting easier.

IMG_1672 IMG_1673

As you can see, the waist in back now hangs the way it’s supposed to, and with a waistband in place it doesn’t leave underwear showing.

Outstanding Issues

But there’s still several things going on wrong with this pattern.  Here’s my current list.

The crotch shape is misadjusted

Reader John Yingling had this to say about the way the crotch curve is drafted in the Jedediah Pants:

One of the biggest problems with the Jedediah Pants pattern from what I have seen from your’s and other blogs is the lower portion of the back rise. I would describe that shape as almost a right angle, creating an unflattering a seam that goes right into the butt crack. If you inspect other patterns, you will see that curve shape is shallower and the crotch point is set further out and somewhat lower. Those changes alone to your back rise will go a long way to improving the fit.

While perusing old issues of Threads magazine to learn more about pants fitting, I came across an article by Joyce Murphy in issue 122 (December 2005/January 2006, pg. 36). In it, Murphy presents the concept of “body space”, or the shape of the volume occupied by the body, as a model to diagnose and solve pants fitting problems. The following diagram is taken from that article.


In these diagrams, Murphy visually illustrates the meaning of crotch length, width, and depth. The negative space, in yellow, is defined by the front and back pattern pieces joined at the crotch point and is the “body space” inhabited by the person wearing the pants. (As an aside, the article presents pattern manipulations to adjust one aspect of the crotch curve – length, width or depth – without altering the others).

In the article, Murphy suggests using a flexible ruler to find the shape of your own body space. I did that, and compared my ideal crotch curve with the one drafted into the Jedediah Pants pattern. Take a look.


As you can see, there’s little correspondence between them.  The crotch curve is likely to need major adjustment before it’s a suitable fit for me.

Twist Lines at the legs

The twist lines remain at the legs.  Reader GF offered this helpful advice:

Where the twist begins, either slash or unpin the entire seam up to that point, letting the fabric fall where it wants to and then repin as it falls smoothly to get an idea of how it changes. I have a feeling that you may need to add back the length you took from the outer side seam above the crotch, back to the leg below the crotch.

And John Yingling again offers a suggestion for the likely cause:

Carefully inspect your photos and you will see that all drag lines on your I’ll fitting muslins radiate from your crotch point out to the side seams. The problem is that that pesky crotch point to too high, pointing upward as it enters the crotch, consequently pulling your fabric into the crotch, and causing all those unsightly drag lines. My opinion is that no amount of taking in darts at those lines will cure the fitting problems. Instead you need to add to the crotch curve, how much depends on how large the drag line is at the crotch.

I feel there’s truth to both these assessments.  If I grab the side seam just at the crotch line, and lift the side seam about another inch or so off the floor, the twists go away.  So it seems that shortening the crotch likely did raise the crotch point, making it higher in relation to the side seam.  Along with John’s suggestion of lowering the crotch point, it might also be possible to fix the problem by shortening the side seam somehow.

Too much fabric on the sides, too tight at the hip

The pattern as it is now has way too much circumference around the side seam, at the level of the crotch point.  So there’s a lot of excess ease just below the hip, which I’m grabbing in the photo below.


At the same time, the pants are now also too tight at the hip.

Both of these problems originated as another side-effect of taking out the wedge of fabric in the crotch seam.  Look again at what happened when I folded the dart out of the pattern.


Look at the bulge in the side seam right at the apex of the dart.  That’s happened as a result of the top of the side seam pivoting along with the fold.  The pivot exaggerated the curve of the side seam, and also narrowed the area around the hip.

It’s worth noting that the extra width in the pant leg at the level of the crotch point appears to be an intentional design decision; the pants, even the model photos on Thread Theory’s website have a bit of a jodhpur pants look to them.

“Sometimes, it’s not you, it’s the pattern”

I also got some very direct feedback about the Jedediah pattern itself from my readers.  Much of it wasn’t positive.  From reader Corey:

I agree, maybe its the pattern, this pattern requires too much alternation for you. I think the pattern needs to be redrafted for you. It is not working big time. Its what I call: a hot mess.

I have to agree, Thread Theory has inferior patterns that are ill fitting and poorly designed.

Some other people in the sewing blogosphere have gotten decent results; MainelyDad at the Japanese Pattern Challenge blog has had great results with this pattern and appears to like it.

However, I sometimes get the feeling that Morgan Meredith at Thread Theory drafted this pattern around her husband Matt, a tallish skinny guy who doesn’t really match my body type.

Style changes

The Jedediah pants were intended to be casual, a mashup of chinos and jeans.  But I think I would be happier if they were a little dressier.

Style changes I might consider to “dress up” the Jeds pattern are the following,:

  • Convert the back yoke to waist darts
  • Replace the patch pockets with welt pockets

Which of course is more work on top of the fitting.

What Now?

I think there’s a lot of work to do to turn this pattern into something I’m happy with.

At the start of my project this summer, I chose between the Jedediah Pants pattern and another pattern in my stash: Vogue 8940, also a contemporary-styled pants pattern.  Here’s Vogue’s model pics of their pattern:

Vogue 8940 also uses a yoke for a more casual, jeans-like appearance but includes more elegant pockets – I’m guessing that’s a welt pocket under the flaps.

Truth be told, I like the styling of Vogue 8940 better, at least based on the photos.

As I see it, here are my options:

  1. Press forward with the fitting and alterations on the Jeds. This is a great option if the primary goal is to teach myself fitting by trial and error, and I have both the time and patience to stick with it.  There’s still a high likelihood it’ll end up nowhere.
  2. Choose Vogue 8940 instead. This might be the most straightforward solution, but there’s always the chance that pattern won’t fit well either.
  3. Ruboff (clone) a pair of Levi Dockers.  Several readers, led by David Coffin, suggested this option as the quickest route to get out of fitting land and on to sewing.  Other readers cautioned that making an accurate ruboff is harder than it sounds.
  4. Draft my own pattern. I have both Don McCunn’s book How to Make Sewing Patterns, as well as Kenneth D. King’s Trouser Draft ebook to use as starting points for the venture.
  5. Abandon and start a new project. This only delays the issue, because I do want to sew myself pants at some point.

Which one will I choose?  I’ll let you know next time.  If you have anything to add on the Jedediah Pants pattern I’d love to hear it.

39 thoughts on “It’s Not You, It’s the Pattern

  1. Miss J

    Hi, I’m not familiar with the pattern you’re using but I vote point 1- Press forward with the fitting and alterations on the Jeds.

    This major rework is a pattern draft and you can call on your books for reference.

    You’ll be successful in the end and then you can treat your rework as your block template and improve the use of all commercial patterns thereafter.

    I believe that increasing the crotch as John suggests will work wonders.

    Thanks for such an interesting post and for being so open to accepting positive suggestions from your readers.

  2. Michael Theisen

    “Hot mess” is the best description so far. I’d vote options 2 or 3. I have more sympathy for my sewing sisters.

  3. Wil

    You put so much time into this pattern and have done so much research I think drafting your own pattern is the best idea. With all the changes you have done, it is not anywhere close to the original pattern. A “Frankenpattern” made up of several patterns might also work for you at this point. I applaud you for doing so much research and gaining a tremendous amount of knowledge.
    I like to sew, and as I have stated in my blog, I will rate a pattern highly when it only needs a minimal amount of tweaking to fit me and the directions are easy to follow.
    I didn’t want to say it until someone else did. This Jedediah pattern is made for a certain body style and a twenty something. Anyone older has had problems. Gravity and years definitely make changes to the body.
    So “Great Work” and I always enjoy your blog.

    1. Wil

      Also, the model for the Jed pants has a large rear view and is wide at the hips. I am not saying this is bad, just not everyone has this body. So a pattern made specifically for him will not fit others. I am 6′ 2″ , 155 pounds. This pattern would not work for me.

    2. mportuesisf Post author


      I love your perspective that a good pattern is one that needs only minimal tweaking to fit.

      Up until now, I’ve only made minimal tweaks to fit things on me. I’ve also steered towards really simple adjustments, such as narrowing the shoulder width on a shirt.

      It’s just that after seeing the way the Jed pattern fit me unmodified, I knew I was not going to sink the effort making three pairs of pants that look that bad. So, I decided to bite the bullet and make a serious attempt at fitting.

      Thanks for the encouragement.

  4. Corey

    Option 2 and 3

    Use the Vogue Pattern, I have had good luck with them. I have that exact pattern, I like the fit and style, modern in the sense, short rise, trim near the hips.

    Or take apart your pants that fit well since dockers are pretty cheap to purchase and just make your pattern. You will be able to use your pattern as a block for yourself, make jeans and all different kinds of trousers and you will know it will fit well, the way you like it .

    I am not knocking thread theory patterns and I fully believe in supporting indie pattern makers, but they are just poorly designed. It seems like it was designed to fit a specific guy and the expectation is that it should fit everyone else NOT!!!!. Commercial patterns are standard based on industry measurements and closer to RTW.

    Final point and I will keep saying this over and over again: MEASURE and COMPARE

    1. mportuesisf Post author

      The main reason I chose the Jeds over Vogue 8940 to start with is that I did want to support an independent pattern maker – especially one that specializes in menswear. The people at Thread Theory seem to be making a very earnest effort at serving a very underserved niche in the sewing world – contemporary styled patterns for men. It’s kind of a shame this pattern appears to be a poor match for my figure.

  5. Stoting Stitch

    Do the men out there think that Vogue 8940 fits well on the model? It looks really sloppy to me.

    1. Corey

      Does it really matter? The model needs the pants pressed. Yes they look a bit sloppy on him, but I beg to ask, how many men do you see with perfect pants on? This goes back to my comment on Lycra. It helps with fitting if you want some that is going hug your body. The material they probably used is a light weight cotton, that cresses and looks sloppy when worn. Think Linen, at the end of the day you look like your wearing a burlap sack. Some material are better suited to pants and some are not. This ain’t women’s wear.

      1. Stoting Stitch

        It absolutely does matter. Vogue Patterns is a major, some would say, the preeminent American pattern company. It doesn’t speak well for the company to present products that are ill-fitting and poorly pressed. If that’s the best THEY can do, what hope is there for a little home sewer? Design and construction are about attention to detail.

        Gee, I did happen to notice that the model is a dude and not a lady. That makes it worse. Menswear, in fact, usually has higher standards than womenswear.

        1. Corey

          I do agree that Vogue should present the clothing as best as possible. The trousers look like he sat in them, ran errands and they were doing the photo shoot at the end of his work day in those clothes. Normally, they would have a stylist and other staff that would pick up on all the wrinkles in the seat, at the knees and the sloppy length. They would be pressed and perfect looking for the photo shoot.

          BTW stoting stitch, what is your background? (sewing wise that is)

          1. Stoting Stitch


            Thanks for agreeing with me on the styling point. Seriously, I rarely see men in the street wearing trousers that look that bad.

            As for my background, I’ve taken several womenswear, menswear, and ladies and mens tailoring classes at FIT, along with occasional fitting lessons with a private teacher because FIT, in general, does not teach fitting for “real people.” (BTW, even in a design school class, the garment is supposed to look as good as possible. Many students go to the dry cleaners for a professional press before presenting their work. Points are taken off for sloppiness. I’ve never seen anything as bad as those Vogue Patterns trousers.)

            At this point, I get the most out of my private sessions because I know how to sew reasonably well, but not how to fit, and there’s no point in putting time, effort, and money into sewing things that don’t look good. I recently bought a professional dress form and will be customizing it to mirror my body shape. I hope that will allow me to learn more fitting on my own, as well as draping.

            Fitting for a real person is a completely different set of skills from construction. If your body shape departs significantly from the pattern, you may need to make numerous muslins to achieve a decent fit. The other thing I’ve learned is that even an experienced sewer and fitter often isn’t going to be able to tell you whether a pattern will require a lot of adjustments until you actually cut it out and pin it on you. Pattern illustrations can be very misleading. Rave reviews of a pattern may or may not be helpful. The writers may have a different body type or are willing to put up with a bad fit. Some may not even know what a good fit is. I was so used to poorly fitting clothes I had to look up fitting standards. Fashion magazines notoriously pin and pull clothes on the model to create the illusion of good fit.

            It was from my teacher I learned that I couldn’t just trace off the corresponding sizes on muslin, connect them with my drafting curves, and expect them to fit together. I have to do a little math on paper and create a shape, which I do with Swedish Tracing Paper or Bosal. I get it pin fitted, make adjustments, then go to the muslin.

            I have a smattering of pattern making, but sometimes it is unhelpful because the principles that apply to basic drafting for an industry dress form don’t apply to my body. My teacher has made fitting changes that would never have occurred to me or to anyone who has not fit a lot of different kinds of bodies over the years.

            That’s why I suggested that the blog author bite the bullet and hire someone to help him fit a pattern or clone his pants. He’ll emerge from the process with a nice pattern that he can use more than once and will learn a lot. In addition, people who do this for a living can give you tips, such as the best place to buy muslin, how to locate hard-to-find notions, etc. The web is very valuable, but it doesn’t have all the answers.

        2. mportuesisf Post author

          The wrinkles underneath the seat in Vogue’s model photo did not escape my notice. But they still fit that model better than my Jeds fit me.

          I’m muslining the Vogue pattern right now for purposes of comparison.

  6. Josie

    Aloha Michael,

    All I want for Christmas… Yes to the people who suggested a clone. Lately, I am in favor of cloning. I just spend three weeks on a pair of pants( took the zipper off graded the crotch, lower the waist band, took darts off, add buttons). I am happy with the results.
    Lately, I rather spend the time sewing something I know for sure I will be happy wearing it.
    Take the knowledge you learn from this experience.
    Clone or not, if you want to continue working on the Jeb pants. How about adding a piece of material ONLY at the crotch? Look at yoga pants crotch. Some of them have two triangles at the crotch. I did that at a pair of linen pants where there was not enough material in the area.
    I am the one who refuse to give up…

    Mele Kalikimaka

    1. mportuesisf Post author

      I think that if I continue with the Jeds, I’m going to back up before the point where I took out the big dart, and completely redraft the crotch seam.

      It’s funny that you bring up adding a gusset at the crotch – Thread Theory just had an article on their blog about doing that (though it was for a different pants pattern).

  7. Corey

    Stoting Stitch

    I agree totally with you. I think I have said this before: the sewing/construction is the easy part. It is the fitting that takes a very long time. For my own personal sewing, I don’t have so many fitting issues with patterns. Our blog host, as you stated should consider working with someone to step up his skills. I ended using my own personal tailor, a guy named vito (italian) was terrific at alterations, menswear tailoring, fitting, etc. He could also take some community college courses. In SFO there is Sandra Betzina/Ron Collins he should consider meeting them. She designs for Vogue and Ron can sew and fit anything.

    I have been sewing since i was 10yrs , so over 30+ years during that time I have learned most everything concerning design, construction and fitting. I not versed in manufacturing, but that would not take me long to get up to speed on. I generally use blocks/slopers when I work with commercial patterns. I also replicate alot of RTW, with all my rulers and doc’s examination paper (cheap by the roll) I use Metric Pattern Cutting for Menswear and Pattern Making for Fashion Designers for drafting my own patterns.

    I am very skilled at grading multisized patterns, I am just working on grading based on a single size, using horizontal/vertical grades based on standard industry measurements. I am doing this since I do like to work with some vintage patterns that are way way to small. (without CAD or software)

    My major goal for my sewing is to knock off designer RTW looks, so I am also working to do my own pattern drafts to construct the garment. One challenge i have not tackled is making a Chanel Jacket Knock off. The couture sewing techniques, handstitching, all the elements that use to go into menswear back at the turn of the 1900’s I need to learn draping on a dress form and some other skills.

    Again, I agree with you, our blog host should consider working with someone to help him with fitting.

    1. mportuesisf Post author


      “In SFO there is Sandra Betzina/Ron Collins he should consider meeting them. She designs for Vogue and Ron can sew and fit anything.”

      I think you missed my comments in the prior message about Sandra Betzina. I purchased one of her classes on Craftsy and though she has impressive credentials, I found her teaching style disorganized and scatterbrained.

      The suggestion to find a teacher is a good one, but it’s not going to be her.

      1. Corey

        I missed that posted about Sandra.

        However, I do really like Ron Collins (canadian, and i am too), he knows his business, garment construction and fitting. I have a great deal of respect for him and his garments are pretty much all made by him. His construction skills are outstanding. He is the reason why I joined power sewing to watch his techniques. Him and Sandra make a good team together. He does most of the sewing. I would actually go to one of his sewing retreats with sewing and fabric shopping.

        As far as getting help, you should be able to find someone there in San Francisco. Its a big big city. There are numerous sewing groups and while you may not have a personal relationship with your tailor like I did, it is still not a bad idea to look for one for help. You can also make inquires at fabric stores and also merchants who sell sewing machines. Personally I would like to apprentice with a Hong Kong based tailor. They can make anything and make it well.

        1. Kathy

          Sandra is very knowledgable. I would not judge her based on that one Craftsy class. She was ill when filming it. I have other videos done by her that are not scattered like that and watched her web series she does with Ron Collins. She also does workshops and one of those might be helpful.

          My other suggestions are — muslin the Vogue pattern and see if that is something that maybe more workable. Rub off a pair that fits you. Conversely, look at Burda. They feature a more European fit.

          1. mportuesisf Post author

            If Sandra Betzina was ill when filming her class, she should have rescheduled the filming schedule with Craftsy. It’s the only one of 15 video classes I’ve paid for that wasn’t worth the money. I would not want to pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars for hands-on instruction only to find more of the same. When I wrote about this on my blog a while back, I got replies from people who had done exactly that – paid for one of her hands-on seminars – and were very disappointed.

            I’m currently in the process of muslining the Vogue pattern right now.

      2. Stoting Stitch

        It sounds as if she simply wasn’t on her game that day, but even when a teacher is fully functioning, it often comes down to the quality of the interaction, which is partly subjective. I’ve had a teacher who is treated by some as a demi-god: I was not impressed. By the same token, teachers I’ve raved about have rubbed others the wrong way. If it’s a bad experience all you can do is hope that it’s of short duration and didn’t cost too much money.

        1. mportuesisf Post author

          It was just a Craftsy class, and I got it on sale, so it wasn’t a whole lot of money.

          1. Stoting Stitch

            I meant in general. I once spent hundreds of dollars on a miserable experience that was not short-term.

    2. Stoting Stitch


      Thanks for discussing your background: I love to hear how people developed their skills and what their goals are. Good luck to you. I really find sewing and tailoring fascinating, but don’t sew consistently for lack of a sewing space. I also spend way too much time reading sewing blogs. :-) I hope 2015 will be different, and that I’ll figure out a way to work more with my private sewing teacher using my customized dress form. (My teacher is another lucky person who has been sewing since childhood, although she also has fashion design and couture school experience.) I also might try to work one-on-one with a wonderful tailor in the area.

      One of my goals is to make a Chanel-style jacket. As usual, I’m somewhat overwhelmed. I’ve read every blog entry on the subject, taken a Craftsy course by Lorna Knight, and bought Claire Shaeffer’s book on the jacket (the book on the skirt will be published early next year). I don’t want to make one of those boxy, cropped versions because it wouldn’t be flattering. I need to work on fitting so I can modify a pattern for a shape that will be more attractive. Many of the sources I consulted discuss the basic jacket, but there are versions in which some light, tailoring interfacing is used to create a little structure.

      If you are interested in learning something about fine ladies’ tailoring, I highly recommend Thomas von Nordheim’s Vintage Couture Tailoring book. It’s really good, although it treats structured, tailored garments, not the Chanel jacket.

  8. GF

    check out
    It’s totally up to you if you want to keep on working on the progress you’ve made so far, you will learn a lot. It’s hard learning new stuff and pants fitting is one of the most challenging fit issues, you will get there no doubt at all! Once you get there you can easy add in stylistic changes.

    I would vote for you not to give up, you’ve already identified a crotch shape change needed.
    And by the way, check out the Fashion Incubator posts on mono butt and camel toe pants fitting issues. I think you’re doing great and it is so interesting to see your analysis, thanks so much for sharing it.

  9. Donna

    I did a fit course with Peggy Sagers earlier this year and think she is a terrific teacher.
    I think you may have come to grief by taking the dart from the hip to under the crotch. Peggy would do that in two steps – not a single step as you have done.
    I would suggest you start again and and take a dart across the rear end first to reduce the length of the rear crotch by putting the pants on and pinning it out.
    Then, take another dart under the crotch (front and back legs), from inner seam tapering to outside seam. With jeans you may have to take several darts to get the shape right for your leg. This will remove additional wrinkles that are related to the angle of the leg. This becomes more critical as the pant legs become tighter.
    Good luck!

    1. mportuesisf Post author

      I agree with you that taking the dart out from hip to crotch was a mistake. If I resume fitting the Jeds pattern, I’m going to hit the reset button and go back to the point before I removed that dart.

      I wonder if Peggy Sagers will be teaching a fit course in the Bay Area anytime soon.

    2. mportuesisf Post author

      I just checked Peggy Sager’s website. She will be doing a one-day seminar in San Jose (easy for me to get to) in March 2015. But she only does hands-on muslin fitting with her own patterns – other patterns and self-drafts are not allowed. And of course, she has no patterns for men.

  10. Corey

    I wanted to take this opportunity to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

    Here is to good things in the New Year, and exciting sewing adventures.

    1. mportuesisf Post author


      Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too! Thank you so much for commenting here and sharing your experience with me.

  11. Josie

    Hi Michael,

    I remember the word “gusset” … two days later. I remember the right word just not at the right time… Oh, the joys of writing in a second language.

    Thanks for taking us along in your sewing journey.
    Mele Kalikimaka and Ahui hou
    (Yes, we have snow at Mauna Kea Observatory)

  12. John Yingling

    John Y

    I have given plenty of comments on altering your pattern, but also mentioned you might try to draft your own pattern. If I decide to start from scratch, which I often do if I’m making costume pants, my go to book for men’s tailored clothing is “Fundamentals of Men’s Fashion Design: A Guide to Tailored Clothing,” by Masaaki Kawashima. It is available on Amazon for over a 100 bucks, and on ebay for $99. I got my copy as student back in the stone ages of the 1970’s for a lot less. His system uses a minimum of measurement specs to begin with, and I get good results, although like any other draft, you still have to fine tune the pattern. I find that I usually do a minimum of changes, but every body is different.

    Just checking the back rise on his basic sloper in the book, guess what? No right angle at the crotch fork!

    1. John Yingling

      Just an update on the Kawashima book I mentioned in the above comment. I am making a costume for a teen age boy, and I need to make a perfect fitting pair of pants for him. Using Kawashima’s book, I drafted a pair of basic straight pants, the only modification I made was to increase the hip curve, since I thought he needed just an inch more in that area. I made it up in a lightweight muslin and did the first fitting. Wouldn’t you know, a very nice fit, the only problem area was that hip increase I added, I needed to pin that alteration out; had I stuck to the original instructions I wouldn’t have needed to change anything. The other minor change was that I wanted a closer fit below the buttocks, so there would be a smooth fit over the butt and a gentle curve just below (my instructions from the choreographer was to make him look good!). To get that below the butt fit, I pinched out about 3/4″ just below the hip line extending about 4 inches down. I then transfered those adjustments to the lower back crotch line and back upper thigh. I removed those areas from the back crotch/fork area, altered the muslin, refitted, and voila!, a beautiful fit!

      I initially drafted that pattern using Kawashima’s method with some skepticism, having to draft for a boy with waist 34″, but it turned out much better that I expected. So to you Michael, can I suggest you give his draft a try?

      1. John Yingling

        In the Tailor and Cutter Forum, Sator has posted Kawashima’s method on June 23, 2010, in the Trouser and Waistcoat Forum, in case you don’t want to spend $100 for a used book on eBay. Good luck!

        1. mportuesisf Post author

          Thanks for the referral. The regulars at Cutter and Tailor poo-poohed this trouser draft, but that’s just what they do.

          I’m still pressing ahead with Vogue 8940, but I’m now working on two projects simultaneously and I’ve not made much progress on either.

          1. Stoting Stitch

            “The regulars at Cutter and Tailor poo-poohed this trouser draft….”

            Even Sator doesn’t strongly recommend it. I assume he posted it for educational purposes. jcsprowls, who can be skeptical, thought it would work fine. Der Zu Schneider, who is usually pretty cynical, also says it’s all right, but notes that another system might be better for a beginner.


            I believe many people use the Mansie Wauch trouser draft to start.

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